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Hello,
What books should I start with if I want to get into Mr. G's world?
What books should I start with if I want to get into Mr. G's world?
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Mon, June 9, 2008 - 7:46 AM1) All & Everything: Tales of Baalzebub to his Grandson
2) Meetings with Remarkable Men
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Mon, June 9, 2008 - 10:07 AMI just met and listened to Gurdjieff: The Key Concepts by Sop Wellbeloved lecture, and really enjoyed her book and knowledge.
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Wed, June 11, 2008 - 10:36 AMI would suggest that you DO NOT start with "Beelzebub's Tales".
Here are some great introductory books to Gurdjieff's ideas:
1) "Gurdjieff: An Introduction to his Life and Ideas" by John Shirley
2) "In Search of the Miraculous" by P.D. Oupspensky (but don't bother trying to understand the parts on ocatves or universes, it's pretty much incomprehensible in Ouspensky's books)
3) " Meetings With Remarkable Men" by Gurdjieff
4) "Is There Life on Earth" by John Bennett (my personal favorite introductory book, maybe out of print)
This is a great tribe, come back often with feedback/thoughts on any books you read! -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 3:34 PMWhy not start with Beelzebub's Tales? -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Fri, June 13, 2008 - 9:15 PMRe: "Why not start with Beelzebub's Tales?"
If one is not already familiar with Gurdjieff's ideas then Beelzebub will likely come accross as poorly written nonsense. Even G himself admitted this and asked De Salzmann to rewrite parts of it (which is now published as the "revised" edition). I can't imagine anybody recommending Beelzebub as a good introduction to G's ideas. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Thu, June 26, 2008 - 6:32 PMThanks, I was asking because I am a noob!
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 8:21 AMThere are two kinds of Gurdjieff books: a) those written by Gurdjieff himself (arguably with various degrees of input & editing by associates), and b) those books written by his acolytes, students, disciples, scholars, followers, and assorted hangers -on. The latter class can be impressions, opinions, explanations, reflections, interpretations.... anything but the direct revealed knowledge as transcribed by G from his own sources. My reccomend?... to know The Work, go as directly to the source as possible.
As to why read All & Everything: Beelzebub....?
This is an entertaining science fiction narrative, easy to get into, and carrying much/most of G's fundamental ideas. It's interesting here to note in passing, that Scientology's founder also employed science fiction as a vehicle for spreading ideas, and wrote profusely in that vein. Some would say that even the Holy Scriptures carry some level of speculative fiction in order to impart information or a moral point.... just another form of storytelling style which G's interlocutors have found engaging over the years.
Even today, All & Everything, a thick tome of over 1000 pages, is commonly used as a beginner text by Gurdjieffian schools on the East coast and in Western Europe. Don't let G's self-criticism deter you from reading the book. Often the harshest self-critics put out the most worthwhile works, filled with solid content.
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Mon, July 28, 2008 - 5:22 AMGurdjieff wrote a few books and strongly recommended that they be read in a specific order starting with "Beelzebub's Tales To His Grandson." It's all in the introduction to this book.
I started with Beelzebub's Tales and haven't regretted it so far. It never struck me as "poorly written nonsense." -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Mon, July 28, 2008 - 10:03 AMRe: "I started with Beelzebub's Tales and haven't regretted it so far. It never struck me as "poorly written nonsense."
Were you already somewhat familiar with Gurdjieff's ideas before embarking upon Beelzebub? -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Tue, July 29, 2008 - 5:56 AMI agree...you have to understand his ideas before you read "Tales"...a noob would be wasting his/her time...its as simple as that.
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 3:41 PMThank you Hank for your suggestions / input. I'm putting these on my "list." : )
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Wed, June 11, 2008 - 6:38 PMOf the many books I've read, I'd say "Meetings" would be the best to get you into his world - at least from his perspective. I also enjoyed "Boyhood with Gurdjieff" by Fritz Peters. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Thu, June 12, 2008 - 12:54 AMCertain books will speak to you or reach you depending on what center you tend to operate on: Anyone want to take a stab at what they might be? They are so different each one...it almost seems like a different author or speaker for his books.
Intellectual?
emotional?
physical?
all three?
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Thu, June 12, 2008 - 8:57 AMRe: "Certain books will speak to you"
This certainly seems to be the case. Although I used to enjoy reading philosophy books years ago, the manner in which Ouspensky operated from his intellectual center (seemingly excluding any trace of the other centers) was just too much! I've only read his "Tertium Organum" (which I enjoyed immensly), "In Search" (read that one about 6 or 7 times thus far), and "Psychology of Man's..". I never read any of his other books because he was just over the top when it came to the use of his intellectual center (and his seemingly absent emotional center).
John Bennett, on the other hand, seems to write primarily from his emotional center, although his keen intellect is shown as well. Based on his experiences in life, it seems that he was also in touch with his physical center, too, although it is likely that he operated primarily from the emotional center. I like his books more than any other 4th way author. He blends the emotional with the intelllectual to my satisfaction. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Thu, June 12, 2008 - 11:22 PM"Meetings" has always seemed very physical to me...full of physical references..and survival ..the muscles in your legs should hurt after reading that one....well ....no wonder he like to drive a car later in his life... Doesn't he travel the globe and fight off sand storm on stilts and wild dogs....whew!
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 12:51 AMThanks for your input everyone. Right now I'm reading "Living the Mindful Life" by Charles T. Tart. Although Tart is on the Tibetan Buddhism trail, he seems well versed in Guirdjeff's world and gives what in at least my eyes seems to be a fair introduction to the man, his ideas and basic techniques.
Anyone read it? :-) -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 8:07 AMI was introduced to Gurdjieff by Osho. I agree with him that Ouspensky is the easiest way to access Gurdjieff. Of course, O. was all over the shop and left G. to go on on his own (back into confusion) and produce a bunch of garbage. In Search of the Miraculous is great, but even better is the lesser read New Model of the Universe. Amazingly, Ouspensky wrote it before his time with Gurdjieff! For the best list of the greatest books in human history, check out Osho's Books I Have Loved. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 11:36 PMWell, you have to realize that G really wasn't much of a writer, and everything bearing his name was produced with the assistance of his students. The swarm of 'confusion' you refer to was how the man taught; this was his art. He could get people so confused that they didn't know which way was 'up'. And, whether they realized it or not, this is exactly what they were looking for.
Ouspensky said that the most powerful idea he had ever been exposed to was G's idea of the non-expression of negative emotions. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 1:33 AMThat is the cool thing about him....his ideas are so cool and nascent with esoteric power..... but where is he?
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 1:37 AM"G's idea of the non-expression of negative emotions."
Could you give me an idea of what this is about? :-) -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 9:35 AMQ: Why is it so difficult to avoid being caught by a negative thought or mood?
A: The best hope of learning how to avoid falling such an easy prey to negative emotions appeared to lie in becoming more and more sensitive to the early signs of their advent, and, having detected their close proximity to us, to step aside in time. If we waited too long before we did this we were completely in their power. (Kenneth Walker)
A: One of the worst illusions we have is that negative emotions are produced by circumstances, whereas all negative emotions are IN US, INSIDE US. This is a very important point. We always think negative emotions are produced by the fault of other people or by the fault of circumstances. We ALWAYS think that. Our negative emotions are in ourselves and are produced by ourselves. There is absolutely not a single unavoidable reason why somebody else's action or some circumstance should produce a negative emotion IN ME. It is only MY weakness. No negative emotion can be produced by external causes if we do not want it. We have negative emotions because we permit them, justify them, explain them by external causes, and in this way we do not struggle with them. (P.D. Ouspensky)
from : www.superwisdom.com/public/97.cfm
Seems to be an excerpt from Vernon Howard in his book 'The Mystic Path to Cosmic Power' about things that Gurdjieff may have replied to specific questions or perhaps what he may have gleamed from what Gurdjieff had said.
I do not know personally, I have not read very much of G yet. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 11:54 AMBut, aren't there levels above this, where, someone your around is either a black hole of no energy, or they are a vampire... And you are in danger of being drained... ? -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 1:15 PM"objective consciousness" is a term that is found in his books. I have never heard in G's writings anything about Vampires....sounds scary and creepy...but G would probably be mercilessly on someone so asleep. I think he would call these people sleep walkers. But I don't think that they can drain your capacity to be compassionate or frank if your striving to work within the realms of "objective consciousness" what ever that might be?
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 3:02 PMWell, as far as the Gurdjieff work is concerned, the concept of the non-expression of negative emotions is about as fundamental as it gets. We're barraged by inputs almost continually, and a substantial percentage of them produces what would be termed 'negative emotions', mechanical responses which would be seen as the way our beings mechanically leak energy. They're different for each of us; we each have our own repertoire of them. After some time of working with this idea, at least if you're somewhat serious about it and you begin to try and isolate the way you personally leak energy, whether it be through the illusive concept of 'Self Remembering' or through receiving photographs from other students or what have you - you might get to the point where you can begin to modify your actions. Of course, by making one change, you're likely to cause another and so on. In theory, the key is to seal enough of these leaks so you'll be able to free energy for the evolution of being.
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Sat, July 5, 2008 - 8:43 PMRe:" Right now I'm reading "Living the Mindful Life" by Charles T. Tart. Although Tart is on the Tibetan Buddhism trail, he seems well versed in Guirdjeff's world and gives what in at least my eyes seems to be a fair introduction to the man, his ideas and basic techniques."
Yes, I love the books of Charles Tart. His "Living the Mindful Life is a great introduction to a basic Gurdjieffian practice known as mindfulness and also known to many of us as insight meditation. Tart also has a book I HIGHLY recommend (I'm ashamed to admit I forgot to put in my recommended list) entitled "Waking Up". This book is perhaps one of the best introductions to Gurdjieff's ideas that actually has some basic practices outlined for folks to engage in. Tart is a wonderful author and continues to be an inspiration to me. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Mon, July 7, 2008 - 2:05 AMHank, I tend to think that insight meditation was not the way Gurdjieff approached things; it wasn't his style - not that it can't be a useful exercise for someone on a spiritual path. The fact is, I don't think the methods that Gurdjieff used would be tolerated in this country at this time, as he would likely be described as being out of control. Any references and practices of the now new age offerings of Hinduism and Buddhism would have been strictly off-limits, and those who wouldn't or couldn't let them go would be asked to leave. He would have been more likely to have people call his students at 3:00am, and tell them to go off to some remote hilltop in the country early on a stormy morning and have them wait there for a couple of hours. Then he'd send someone up to tell them he wasn't coming. And he'd do the same thing again the following week. He was more intent on keeping people off-balance than helping them to center themselves. And he loved to get them drunk. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Mon, July 7, 2008 - 2:24 PMI agree with much of what you wrote regarding Gurdjieff's practices being quite different in many ways, yet the practice of insight meditation is the EXACT same practice as the sittings at the Gurdjieff Foundation. 100% the same, even the same duration of time. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Mon, July 7, 2008 - 4:00 PMThanks for the clarification. I was relating to 'getting into G's world' - I don't think the term 'insight meditation' had even been coined when G was alive. Also, I worked with several of G's students and there was never any mention of this. I tend to think regular meditative practice (other than dance) was added downstream. Certainly, not a bad think - maybe even an improvement. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Books to read for a n00b
Mon, July 7, 2008 - 9:08 PMinsight meditation?...could you explain the process? This term I am unfamiliar with. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 10:58 PMInsight meditation is also known, in traditionalist circles, as vipassana meditation. Pretty much the same practice known as "sitting" at the Gurdjieff Foundation. It seems clear to me that Gurdjieff likely learned this technique during his travels and studying with buddhists. -
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 11:00 PMOh, the process is too much for my tired body to expand on right now, but check out "Living the Mindful Life" by Tart and he provides a very clear and concise introduction to this practice.
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 10:43 PMen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insight_meditation - Vipassana
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Re: Books to read for a n00b
Sun, August 3, 2008 - 1:41 PMYou nOObers might want to start with these! Good Luck!
Our Life With Mr. Gurdjieff. Thomas and Olga de Hartmann
Boyhood With Gurdjieff. Fritz Peters
Idiots in Paris. John G. and Elizabeth Bennett
Teachings of Gurdjieff. C.S. Nott
Seeing, Searching, Being. A Film about William Segal by Ken Burns
Opening. William Segal
A Voice at the Borders of Silence. William Segal
Heart Without Measure. Ravi Ravindra
Gurdjieff: Anatomy of a Myth. James Moore
The Unknowable Gurdjieff. Margaret Anderson
Memories of Gurdjieff. A.L. Staveley
Diary of Madame Egout Pour Sweet: With Gurdjieff in Paris 1948-1949. Rina Hands
Journey Through This World. C.S Nott
Gurdjieff Remembered. Fritz Peters
Forty Years After Gurdjieff. John Fuchs
Who Are You, Monsieur Gurdjieff? Rene Zuber
Toward Awakening: An Approach to the Teaching Left by Gurdjieff. Jean Vaysse
Warriors Way. Robert deRopp
Self-Completion. Robert deRopp
Gurdjieff: Making A New World. John G. Bennett
Gurdjieff: A Very Great Enigma. John G. Bennett
Talks on Beelzebub's Tales. John G. Bennett
The Strange Life of Ivan Osokin. P. D. Ouspensky
In Search of the Miraculous. P.D. Ouspensky
Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson. G.I. Gurdjieff
Meetings with Remarkable Men. G.I. Gurdjieff
Life is Real, Only Then When "I Am". G.I. Gurdjieff
Views From the Real World: Early Talks as Recollected by His Pupils. G.I. Gurdjieff
Meetings With Remarkable Men. A Film by Peter Brooke and Jeanne de Salzmann
