Does anyone have any thoughts on intentional suffering?
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Re: Intentional suffering
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 12:48 PMyea, I try to avoid it as much as possible....I prefer intentional fun
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Re: Intentional suffering
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 2:59 PMIn Zen there is a meditation: Take in all suffering that one can imagine that could be happening in regards to the subject that you want healing for.... Bring this in, and breath it out. Sending out waves of healing, and taking in the pain that is associated with .... say: your sister or your lost love... or the wars of the world.
In Zen you are given a bag of shit... you examine it... you plant a seed in it, and hand it back a tree.
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Re: Intentional suffering
Sat, February 23, 2008 - 5:29 PMThere are certain experiences that just by the fact that we're humans being slung through time on the planet earth, we're going to get nicked and dented. The problem is that there is so much in our lives we unnecessarily fuss over, it's difficult at times to sort it all out.
I'd say, possibly, that intentional suffering can be a tool, a method to begin to push you beyond what you consider your perceived limits, which are frequently more flexible than one might think. By extending your limits, what you thought to be suffering can begin to change. One never really arrives at a point where suffering disappears, though one's relationship to the process can begin to transform.
The problem is that we don't know how to focus what energy we do have onto a proper plan of action to intentionally suffer in the first place, and what generally occurs is a right effort for the wrong reason. We can't see ourselves and due to the way our minds are constructed - we don't know what right work is - as frequently it would be the last thing you would even conceive of. In Gurdjieffian terminology, at least initially, this is a role for a 'teacher'. -
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Re: Intentional suffering
Tue, March 4, 2008 - 11:36 AMcrucify the ego... take a loss in PRIDE...
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Re: Intentional suffering
Wed, March 5, 2008 - 5:07 PMI enjoyed reading Charles’ post on this topic. I would add, related to the work of Gurdjieff, the work on experiencing intentional suffering is an important component to the overall work of Gurdjieff. To see our own mechanicalness in almost every aspect of our life, our useless ingrained habits that we don’t often see, and to see the extent of our false personalities is essential in order to see what other possibilities lie beyond our current experiences. To experience intentional suffering is important in the transcendence of change. I think reading up on false personality and buffers could be helpful in understanding intentional suffering more. -
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Re: Intentional suffering
Thu, March 6, 2008 - 12:49 AM"...to see the extent of our false personalities is essential in order to see what other possibilities lie beyond our current experiences."
An idea that floored Ouspensky while listening to Gurdjieff speak was that of 'the non-expression of negative emotions'. Possibly this idea over and above all others can assist a person in generating a type of internal pressure that will enable them to begin to understand to what extent false personality and buffers actually compose the dynamics of the interface with their environment. -
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Re: Intentional suffering
Fri, March 7, 2008 - 1:58 PMRe: An idea that floored Ouspensky while listening to Gurdjieff speak was that of 'the non-expression of negative emotions'.
Yes, this may be important to those of us who desire to work on ourselves, yet it is also one of the most misunderstood of Gurdjieff's ideas. I'm not saying that you are misunderstanding this, Charles, as I have read many of your posts and you clearly have a solid grasp of the system; I'm just writing this for the sake of others who may read this thread.
There is a difference between "the non-expression of negative emotions" and what is known as "bottling up" one's emotions (which is very, very unhealthy). There is a time and place for expressing anger, boredom, and all the rest. Way too much to write in a single post, just wanted to put that out there for any of those new to the Gurdjieff's monumental ideas. I always suggest that, before expressing a negative emotion, one observe it for a time. By giving these feelings attention, by treating them as one would a child (and it's never a good idea to deny or pretend that a child's emotions don't exist), by looking at what our organism is trying to tell us, we can grow to be human beings without quotation marks. But there is a GREAT danger in simply ignoring these negative emotions or they will wreak havoc on our lives.
Good post, Charles! -
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Re: Intentional suffering
Fri, March 7, 2008 - 11:46 PMwww.amazon.com/Why-People...ef=pd_bbs_1
This thread reminds me of this book for some reason. She discusses what she has termed "Woundology." It's excellent. Anyone familiar with her and if so what do you think?
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I have intentionally suffered at my own hand in the form of alcohol and substance use / abuse and cigarettes for over half my life. ( And poor financial decisions. ) Perhaps that's a diff sub on a diff thread. Not sure. I'll do another shot of Jim Beam and contemplate it now.
Cheers! Bottoms up! ( Proposition? OPE!!! ) SALUTE!!! -
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Re: Intentional suffering
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 9:49 AMI read that a small amount of Arsenic in a plant makes' it grow taller, greener, live longer etc... Magnesium changes the flowers to a bright purple... A small amount of caffeine kicks you in high gear.... A small amount of psilsyben.... a shot of ginger in the morning...
Our persona is fenced in by where we go, and also hedged around by where we won't venture.
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Re: Intentional suffering
Sat, March 8, 2008 - 10:48 AM"There is a difference between "the non-expression of negative emotions" and what is known as "bottling up" one's emotions (which is very, very unhealthy)."
"I always suggest that, before expressing a negative emotion, one observe it for a time."
Hank, these are good points. The greatest obstacle to even begin to work with this concept is that we're so tightly bound with the fabric of our lives, that the fluidity of the interface is transparent - that is what Gurdjieff (at least in one respect) refers to 'sleep'. In other words, it's not even an issue of not expressing the negative emotions, it's an issue of seeing them in the first place.
As you mentioned, observation is the first step. Though, observation of a tendency, just by its very nature, changes one's relationship to a specific set of manifestations - at which point, initially, one may find that even though one may get a glimpse of the trails of negative emotions as they pass, there's frequently little on can do to affect them. Yet, this process begins to create a certain pressure.
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